How safe is your gunsafe?

Can a three year old child easily open your gunsafe? Via Forbes, here’s a video of a 3 year old child opening three safes produced by Stack-On, which manufacturers the Bulldog and extremely popular “GunVault” line of safes.

As disturbing as the video is, the rest of the article at Forbes doesn’t exactly give out the warm fuzzies either. The writer takes a look at various models of quick access safes, most of which are made in China using their usual attention to quality control, and the results are that many different models can be easily defeated by means available to a curious toddler.

The best quote from the article, and the guideline which I’d use for any purchase of a safe is simple:

Electrons do not open doors; mechanical components do.

This is especially concerning considering the aggressive marketing campaign behind the GunVault line of safes, which are on the list of devices that are quite easily defeated by casual mischief. I guess the moral of the story is that if you’re going to buy a safe to secure your firearm, simply buying a box with a lock on it isn’t the answer; you have to research the actual locking mechanism that secures the box.

A good friend of mine works in information security, and we’ve talked in the past about the appearance of security vs. actual security. It would seem that the GunVault safes and other similar models that use electronic and biometric locks to control access simply appear to be secure. Unfortunately, this does nothing to address the issue of security for a firearm that needs to be quickly accessed in the event of an emergency. The answer of course has always been education and teaching your children to not mess with your guns. The best place to secure a firearm in the home is on your person. The best place to secure a firearm that’s not in use is in a properly made safe by a reputable company like Liberty Safes or Pendleton Safes. Not some cut rate Chinese operation.

69 comments for “How safe is your gunsafe?

  1. Yamil R. Sued
    February 25, 2013 at 07:24

    Caleb,

    When my daughter was Growing up, I didn’t have a safe, when my son was growing up I had one, but I still had Guns around!! You know what kept them from touching them?? EDUCATION!! They learned from a young age that firearms were dangerous when improperly used!! My daughter is a responsible adult and my son likes to go shooting with me, I taught them to have respect for firearms, NOT FEAR!! My safes are to protect my guns form SCUM, NOT my children!!

    • MattW
      February 25, 2013 at 07:50

      I completely agree that educating children on firearms is the most effective way to keep them from touching them, but I also believe that when they are very young they do not have the mental capacity to understand some of the consequences of touching a firearm. Especially with toddlers around, I think a combination of education and access restriction is the best for my family.

      • Yamil R. Sued
        February 25, 2013 at 09:31

        And that is the beauty of this country, you make your own decisions for your own personal situation!!

        WHen my boy was a Toddler, he never touched a gun, it wasn’t TABOO for him!!

    • jamieb
      February 25, 2013 at 13:20

      yamil my dad was the same, but i feared my dad. I also respected guns, and i knew what would happen if i so much as touched a gun, and he suspected i touched it, how he would know, i didnt know. I just know he would know by the way i placed it back etc, that HE WOULD KNOW. I never went to look or touch them, even after i knew where about in his closet they were.

      That is not to say it is right. He should have had a safe, so should you. What about people visiting the house? If you have 3-4 family members over, and they have 3-4-5 kids over, you cant know for sure one kid will not find you guns. What you did is about as safe as pointing a gun you say is unloaded at someone, then saying: “its ok, i do not have my finger on the trigger, i would never do that!”

      I just needlessly bragging on your part. It reads, i am a better father than most, i am the best father etc. When it fact to others outside your family, it does not read that way at all.

      It is wreckless, and your bragging about it.

      • Yamil R. Sued
        February 25, 2013 at 13:49

        NO, it’s NOT Bragging, It’s EDUCATION!!

        I’m proud of my children and I WORK HARD at continuing EDUCATION!!

        My Mom used to say that EDUCATION IS A LIFETIME WORK!!

        Now, when other kids come to my house, my stuff is in MY OFFICE, now everywhere around the house!!

        NOBODY goes into my office!!

        We have a responsibility to keep our homes safe and that starts with educating our family!!

        • jamieb
          February 25, 2013 at 17:16

          you can stop saying education. Education is not fool proof. People have accidents, people by human nature will reject things they used to know to be true. Cops and troops have ND all the time. Professionals trainers shoot people. Do not think for one minute that you are soooo great as a father that you sub 18 year old kid cant do the opposite of what you teach him. That is the bragging part. That is exactly what you are saying.

          Its as if you are unaware of millions of good people the last 100 years that didnt listen to their parents about drugs, or drinking and driving, or wearing a helmet, or looking both ways across a street, or not speeding, or obvious things like do not tease a dog. Do not play with fire. Do not mix chemicals.

          You are in denial. You cant make people follow what they have been taught with certainty. EVERYONE has been taught to look both ways when crossing a street. I get tail gated by educated upper middle class people with advanced degrees EVERY SINGLE DAY. You do not look like a young guy in your picture, but you write and preach like your some young 21 year old father who is in denial about the real world, and his powers, or lack there of.

          There is not one person in this country who is more than 7-8 years old who has not been taught which is the same as your favorite word (education) that stealing is wrong. So by your logic, there can be no theft. Its impossible, everyone has been told stealing is wrong.

          Good grief. The same reason you need camera so people do not steal at stores, and banks need safes, is the same reason you need a gun safe.

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 25, 2013 at 18:45

            Yes, but Lack of Education is about 90% of OUR problem as Gun Owners!! And to be honest, I know a lot of people that due to their lack of Education( not Schooling) but Real Gun Education SHOULD NOT OWN GUNS!! I have seen people that are a danger to themselves and others!!

            My JOB as a parent is to educate MY children!!

            Your logic states that we shouldn’t even bother to Educate our children and lock guns up because they won’t listen!!

            I would rather believe that my constant and lifetime task of educating my children will pay off.

            And trust me, I WILL NEVER STOP working at Educating my children!!

  2. Todd
    February 25, 2013 at 07:31

    Small world – I sent that link to Dan yesterday. Marc Tobias lives in Sioux Falls as it happens – he’s a legend in the security community.

    Unfortunately pretty much all of the cheap Chinese ‘safes’ are junk.

    • February 25, 2013 at 07:42

      Todd, where do you think I got the link from? ;-)

  3. Matt in FL
    February 25, 2013 at 07:38

    Here’s a video on the same subject, from a talk given at Defcon 19 a couple years ago. It’s not short, but it is fascinating. There really is a lot of absolute crap out there when it comes to gun safes.

    Safe to Armed in Seconds: A Study of Epic Fails of Popular Gun Safes

  4. JethroXP
    February 25, 2013 at 07:56

    Most of my guns are kept in a 1500 lbs. Ft. Knox safe in my home-office. My “night stand” gun is kept in a GunVault inside my nightstand drawer. I do have young children in the house, and they are educated and know not to touch firearms without an adult present. I realize the GunVault is crap, but as far as I know there is no better made equivilant (small, fits in a drawer) type safe from any of the good domestic manufacturers. Also, while I know my kids know better, and I know that a determined thief won’t be detered, I felt I needed at least the illusion of security to keep our my kid’s friends, and the smash-and-grab meth-head type thief. Understading what the limitations are, and the lack of other options, the GunVault in my nightstand serves it’s purpose.

  5. February 25, 2013 at 08:14

    Here’s a post I did recently regarding the security of “gun vaults”. I didn’t do the video, but honestly it is probably the most detailed analysis I’ve seen on these types of gun storage devices. It’s amazing how poor they really are, but it’s worth noting some of them can be upgraded to be quite decent.

  6. Chem
    February 25, 2013 at 08:33

    Crazy stuff. You do get what you pay for in safes. I started out with the sentry long gun and pistol boxes and when I had kids and moved up in the income world I stepped it up to Liberty and Fort Knox safes. I now take a layered approach. The safes I posses are very secure as far as I can tell. However, I also have other measures. For theft I also have a home alarm system. While I am sure professional burglars can defeat it, it seems due dillagence to discourage the riff-raff. For child safety I also teach my children about firearms safety and try to remove any sense of the forbidden or mystery from my firearms modeled on Mas Ayoob’s “Gun Proofing Your Children.” No method is perfect but two systems to mitigate each concern seems a pretty good system.

  7. Skullz
    February 25, 2013 at 08:35

    I agree with the overall sentiment that the Gunvault brand and similar safes are not a good option for true protection of firearms.

    However, I think they have their place. I use a Gunvault safe, bolted to my night stand. That’s where my carry gun lives when I sleep. I have young children who are taught the NRA Eddie Eagle gun safety rules, but I still lock it up when I’m sleeping. The Gunvault brand has an audible keypad tone and alarm setting if a code is entered incorrectly. For safe storage while you’re home and fast access, I think these safes are appropriate when used in the way described above.

    • MattW
      February 25, 2013 at 09:05

      These are my sentiments exactly. A safe like a gun vault is for temporary storage to reduce the risk of accidental handling and increase the amount of time it would take for “unauthorized” access. I would not use one for long-term storage – those would go into my main safe.

      The point of videos like these is to understand the limits of your “security” because no security is perfect. Increase security and you decrease accessibility and ease-of-use. Increase ease-of-use and accessibility, and you decrease security.

      Understand the purpose, the limits, and by all means EDUCATE anyone who will be around your firearms, locked up or not.

  8. Daniel
    February 25, 2013 at 10:37

    To all those talking about Education, a BIG Thumbs UP : ) It is the KEY. When there are inquisitive young minds & hands around, extra precautions need to be taken. I don’t even have children, but I have trigger locks on all my firearms. That is in addition to those not being carried, being locked away safely. When I go to the range, except for my carry weapon, all firearms have a trigger lock and built-in lock engaged (if one exists). Why u might ask . . . you never know what might happen while you are out and about or away from your residence. Better to be SAFE than remorseful. Quick example: you are in a car wreck on the way back from the range, you are taken away in an ambulance, you are not aware and your weapon(s) are left in your vehicle at the scene. No one searches it, a tow truck picks it up. You just never know what might happen, to what was left in it. I had a camera bag taken from a vehicle towed from a head-on. Not sure where it was taken or when, but it was gone when I went to the towing firm to get my belongings the next day.

  9. jimbeam
    February 25, 2013 at 11:14

    Okay, I agree there’s a lot of crappy gun safes out there. It’s ridiculous, they should be much more secure. But let’s keep things in perspective… Most kids won’t be able to open them. Those that do, most likely won’t be harmed by the firearm. Kids suffocating from plastics bags, drowning in the backyard swimming pool, poisoned from medicines not properly secured are much more of a deadly threat than firearms in a cheap Chinese safe.

  10. Daniel
    February 25, 2013 at 11:38

    I agree Jim Beam, the safe story is not all it is cracked ( lol ) up to be. Seriously, hackers break into Government websites . . . . . : (

  11. MrApple
    February 25, 2013 at 12:26

    I’m wary of this article and the video. That kid is either a Elementary/ Middle School Macgyver or the safe was pre-broken into and the kid was shown how and where to break into it. Do average kids really care enough about the possible contents of a safe to spend the time to learn how to break into one? If parents demystified firearms by taking the kid shooting every so often the kids wouldn’t be dying to mess with the TABOO items in Dad’s gun safe.

    • February 25, 2013 at 12:48

      You’re wary of an article in Forbes, written by an extremely well respected physical security expert? Not everything is an evil anti-gun conspiracy.

      • MrApple
        February 25, 2013 at 13:02

        You’re telling me this kid thought this all up by himself. He figured the dropping the safe trick. Then this kid needs to be working with Clooney, Pitt, and the others on the next installment of “Ocean’s 14″.

        • February 25, 2013 at 13:17

          The kid was obviously coached, we’re not saying that he wasn’t. But none of the tasks the kid performs in the video are beyond the skill level of an inquisitive toddler. Beyond that, the ease with which the safes are defeated renders them completely unacceptable for safeguarding valuables against intruders with malicious intent.

          • MrApple
            February 25, 2013 at 14:20

            “…none of the tasks the kid performs in the video are beyond the skill level of an inquisitive toddler.”
            I guess the next time I need to clean under my furniture I’ll call this kid to lift my couch.

          • February 25, 2013 at 14:55

            That’s funny, I didn’t see the kid lift a couch.

          • MattW
            February 26, 2013 at 07:45

            I thought the same thing Caleb, but re-watch the video – at 2:34 there is a shot of the kid bench-pressing a hide-a-bed sofa…

            In all seriousness though – would my 2 year old be able to figure out how to open one of these? The chances are low – but still possible. I don’t take this video as saying “Don’t ever use any of these types of products because they are bad and evil and they will shoot your kids”. I take it as making sure people understand the limits of the devices they are using to secure their firearms.

            Understand your limits and your equipment’s limits – and then make adjustments to mitigate those limits. If one of the safes can be defeated by dropping one corner from a height of a few inches – bolt it to the floor under the bed (as an example).

          • MattW
            February 26, 2013 at 07:46

            Or buy a better safe

        • JamesT
          February 26, 2013 at 04:25

          I’m guessing you don’t have kids. Mine are always picking things up and playing with them, it’s called education.

          This toddler does exactly what any bright toddler would do in the same situation with something it hasn’t seen before, try to lift it and given it’s weight fails. The safe comes dropping down and now it’s unlocked. If anything this shows exactly why these safes must be bolted to something and they should be sold as such.

          • MrApple
            February 26, 2013 at 06:40

            Actually, I have 2 toddlers but neither of them are safe cracking just yet.

    • February 25, 2013 at 12:53

      I suggest going and looking at my post which I also mentioned further up. That video was done by a presenter at < Defcon. Kids can and do figure this stuff out. It isn’t difficult, and I did it a lot as a kid.

      If you honestly don’t think your kid could figure it out, I feel sorry for your kid that you have that low of an opinion of his intellect and ingenuity.

      • jamieb
        February 25, 2013 at 13:35

        my brother could open kid proof anything when he was two years old flat. He could open pill bottles that 25 year old women have a problem with. I agree with you completely.

    • jamieb
      February 25, 2013 at 13:33

      picking up a safe 4 inches is not macgyver. Also this video illustrates you do not need hand strength, fancy tools, good eye hand coordination etc.

      If this kid can get in, then your average punk 14 year old nephew can get in it. You kid being bullied and thinks a gun at school is a good idea. You average 16 year can get in these pathetic safes.

  12. February 25, 2013 at 13:58

    Rule 1: Assume that any locking device that is reasonably affordable to the average gun owner is one step above a “Don’t Touch” sign. Meaning that it will stop the casually curious and the chronically sticky-fingered, but anyone who is even mildly determined and has two brain cells to rub together will be able to defeat it.

    The two limiting factors in those cases will be 1) How long do they have to try and get into it, and b) Do they care if they leave evidence that it was broken into?

    Most gun cabinets and/or quick-access boxes are sufficient for keeping out very young children, those you trust enough to allow into your home, and probably the majority of opportunistic burglars (who usually aren’t all. That’s all most people really need to worry about.

    Higher security is always better, of course, but there’s no need for the average gun owner to break the bank buying a nigh-impregnable vault for his guns, either.

    As for the video: Sorry, but the kid in that video is either a prodigy, or was coached. He’s too quick with all of them – there’s no puzzling things out whatsoever. While there are certainly some badly designed products out there, this is nothing more than fear mongering that makes we think “Follow the money.”

    • February 25, 2013 at 14:07

      Man, it’s like I just said this. Oh wait, because I did:

      The kid was obviously coached, we’re not saying that he wasn’t. But none of the tasks the kid performs in the video are beyond the skill level of an inquisitive toddler. Beyond that, the ease with which the safes are defeated renders them completely unacceptable for safeguarding valuables against intruders with malicious intent.

      ;-)

  13. cj
    February 26, 2013 at 07:35

    Couple thoughts…the point isn’t that this kid is magic and can open safes, it’s that they CAN be opened this easily. Put a million monkeys in rooms with a million safes, and eventually a few of them will get the things open too.

    Note too, that this is about the quality of ‘safe’ you find in most hotel rooms around the world. When traveling with firearms, I always make sure I have my own small safe in the event I have to leave it in the room.

    Finally, I DO have some of these safes. I use them more as lock boxes…one, for example, keeps my wife’s chocolate supply (per her request).

  14. Charles Cherry
    February 26, 2013 at 15:08

    Hey guys, you wrote this statement
    “three safes produced by Stack-On, which manufacturers the Bulldog and extremely popular “GunVault” line of safes.”

    This statement is incorrect, please post a correction. StackOn does not produce The GunVault brand safes.
    Nor was a Gun Vault used in any of the demonstrations in the link you provided in this article.
    A second link you provided to me at my request from Wired.com does have one video. Upon viewing that YouTube video I feel that the effort was considerable. It actually used the same model that I own, and this is my assessment.
    My GunVault is a temporary storage and quick access during night time hours. Only one firearm is in that safe, the one I wear for the day, at work and at home. All other firearms are stored in a stronger gun locker secured as you have described in a later posting, with a physical padlock. At no time is a firearm stored in my GunVault without me present in the home. Now I believe after reading several publications from GunVault that this method is what the safe was intended for, quick access, temporary storage not for any long term stay.
    I recognize your efforts, and they are in the right place. You have caused me to make a reassessment to ensure that what I saw in the video cannot be replicated in my home. Drive on.

  15. lloyd
    February 27, 2013 at 07:00

    i was taught respect, tha trespect was for my parents, other people & guns nough said

  16. Yamil R. Sued
    February 27, 2013 at 08:51

    AMEN, that is EXACTLY the way I was brought up and that is how I deal with my children!! I can’t vouch for other kids, so I have a place for my hardware when other kids are visiting.

  17. jamieb
    February 27, 2013 at 17:16

    yamil:

    “Your logic states that we shouldn’t even bother to Educate our children and lock guns up because they won’t listen!!”

    Teaching your kids and a safe are not mutually exclusive. You should do both. Its a path of least resistance, and hedging you bet.

    That is why i said you were parent bragging. You went from no safe, to a safe, so you recognize the value of a safe. But you they saw this as an opportunity to remind us how your a better parent, and despite owning a safe for apparently one of your kids entire childhood, i am guessing atleast 20 years, you think this is a good platform to say. “well if you are a good parent, you really do not need a safe, i teach my kids, education, smeducation, etc blah blah blah.”

    I see right through it, this is basic psychology. There is no other reason for you to suggest its education, when you have a safe. That is also why you also suggested that a safe and education or as you put it “my logic” are mutually exclusive. I did not even hint at them being mutually exclusive.

    • Yamil R. Sued
      February 27, 2013 at 17:45

      My logic is that I got a safe because I got it DIRT CHEAP when I worked at the Cabela’s Corporate Offices and I got MORE Safes not for my Children but because OF The Scum of the world!!

      Now, if telling you that I actually did a good job in parenting id Bragging, YES,I’M BRAGGING AND I’M PROUD OF MY CHILDREN AND THE JOB ME AND MY WIFE DID!! SATISFIED??

      If you think that Education is a bad thing, that is your problem, NOT mine!!

      I am proud of my children and Education is a lifetime job!! IT NEVER ENDS!! I am still learning myself!! Every day of the week I learn something new. Every day of the week I find something new to teach my children!! One of them is in College now and I still have some bit of wisdom to share with her.

      • jamieb
        February 27, 2013 at 19:11

        no not satisfied, you said you were not bragging earlier, and what you are bragging about is delusional … you think or thought it was 100 % impossible that your kids would touch a gun, or your guns.

        You are myopic, you are stuck on repeat and i actually feel sorry for your wife and kids for having to live with you. You are a broken record of fail.

        Just because your kids never shot themselves does not make you dad of the milenia, in fact you do not even know for sure if they ever touched them. The might very well have, and you would have no clue. Thats funny to me.

        You keep putting words in my mouth because deep down you know you are wrong, thats also whey you didnt respond to my scenarios earlier about why does everyone not do exactly what they are taught? Could it be because you look like your about 60, and you have not moved beyond elementary level of understanding of people. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD MR CAPITAL LETTERS, YOU CANT MAKE ANYONE DO ANYTHING, YOU CAN TELL THEM, YOU CAN TALK TO THEM, YOU CAN LECTURE THEM, YOU CAN EDUCATE THEM and then they still go and do what they want to do.

        Just because your kids didn’t shoot someone goes not make you dad of the year, it means they did not want to shoot someone, thats it. You were a failure at protecting them, and merely got lucky with good kids. You have kids that did well IN SPITE of you, not 100 % because of you.

        I already know where your going to go with this, back to you, and how awesome you are, and your kids are awesome because you sired them, THATS why they listened. But wait guy (that is twice as old as me and less sophisticated than i was at 11 years old), some kids are taught bad things, YET THEY DO GOOD. That disproves what apparently is you whole live’s mantra, that your kids are amazing because how amazing you are.

        Explain that ya know it all. You are not the important cog that hold it all together, ill repeat, you failed your kids and you got lucky.

        • Yamil R. Sued
          February 27, 2013 at 19:22

          I don;t need to explain ANYTHING to you, but you do need help with your anger issues!!

          • jamieb
            February 27, 2013 at 20:08

            Says the guy with caps lock stuck on half the time, who is yelling education education, over about 5-6 posts, neglecting basic common sense, and logic when its painfully pointed out to him. You go right back to yelling and repeating the same stuff.

            There is no good reason to not have a safe. There is no good reason not to practice gun safety, What you are angrily preaching is no different then bah, i point guns at people all the time, no one has gotten hurt yet, only dumb people would get hurt or have a AD ND.

            If you are a real expert you don’t need to practice good safety. No you say ? ohh, well then you must not be an expert, because if you were an expert, then you know know and understand.

            This is a shame coming from a guy that is around 60 years old and has been an FFL for 27 years. It just shows, they will let just about anyone be a FFL, and with dumb luck you can stay one, and your name can stay out of the paper, and your kids can remain alive.

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 27, 2013 at 20:11

            I think you have me confused with someone else.

            BTW, it is good to be anonymous…

          • MrApple
            February 28, 2013 at 03:44

            I find it fascinating how a simple article about small gun safes has becomes a pissing match for so many people. Isn’t there a anti-gun slanted article on the net that would be a better place for this type of heated discussion? Instead of attacking each other how about combating the anti-gun media trying to sway the weak minded of this country into throwing away our rights.

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 28, 2013 at 06:58

            I agree with you 100%, I made a statement and somehow I insulted the sensibilities of some and they would not let it go.

            We have REAL enemies out there, if you want to nitpick, go against them, not each other over something as silly and inconsequential as a Gun Safe. We have bigger and more pressing problems ahead of us.

          • MrApple
            February 28, 2013 at 07:02

            Very true. We can fight each other over the usability of a particular gun safe all while the Liberals are fighting to do away with what you were planning to put in that safe. Find an anti-gun article and stand up for the pro-gun/pro-freedom movement!

          • jamieb
            February 28, 2013 at 14:42

            you do not think advocating for going out of your way, to not be safe, so you can brag is infact giving antis ammo ?

            This guy works for cabelas corporate, he can afford a wife and mutliple kids, a home, fancy camera, multiple guns, yet he PROUDLY rejects the idea of a safe.

            Yeah he is doing allot for the image of honest, hard working, safe gun owners.

            Just because his kids did not kill themselves, or someone else, or even have a AD or ND does not mean he is safe. It means he is lucky. He is not sophisticated to understand this not very deep or radical concept. As i said earlier he is no different than someone who aims a loaded gun at someone with good trigger discipline and says, dont worry, its perfectly safe. Nothing bad has happened yet.

            If you were an expert, and a good parent, you would understand how being unsafe is actually better. If you cant understand, then guess what … then your not a good parent, or an expert.

            Real brainy stuff there yamil. If you think yamil is correct mr. apple, i am not sure you can understand this either.

            It is not hard.

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 28, 2013 at 14:51

            FWIW, I haven’t worked at Cabela’s Corporate for over ten years.

            Cabelas is now in the forefront of the 2nd Amendment and getting deep into 3 Gun.

            And no, my kids Don’t shoot., but they respect firearms.

            Safes should be to keep bad people away, NOT to keep your children away.

            Y

          • jamieb
            February 28, 2013 at 14:34

            This comment has been deleted for violating the Gun Nuts Comment policy. Further violations will result is more severe action. -Moderators

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 28, 2013 at 14:37

            Internet Bravado is a very special thing, isn’t it??

          • jamieb
            February 28, 2013 at 14:50

            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bravado

            I do not think you know what that word means. I actually would love to see you at cabelas corporate tell them they should not sell safes. Maybe they should have free parenting tips pamphlets written by you. No safes. Safes are a crutch of the weak and incompetent.

            I would love to see you on the news say this to a liberal reporter, much like mr apple thinks we need to fight the anits, i would like to see you make a fool of yourself and go on tv and say safes are bad, and good parents do not need them, and should not waste their time.

            I would love to see the backlash, that would be a result of YOUR BRAVADO.

            DEFINITION: 1
            a : blustering swaggering conduct

            What i am saying is not controversial to suggest people that can afford a gun, much less a wife, 2 kids, a house, fancy cameras with a bag full of lens that are worth as much as a nice car, can spare the coin for a safe and the 4 sq ft of space it takes up.

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 28, 2013 at 14:55

            Would you come to the IDPA Nationals and stand in fron of me and treat me like you have treated me online?

            Seriously, would you be so angry with someone at a sporting event or at the shooting range?

            The last person who did that at our range was kicked out from the range for two years.

            We are all second amendment, Pro Liberty, Pro Freedom and Pro Rights, we should NOT be pissing on each other, even if we disagree.

          • jamieb
            February 28, 2013 at 15:13

            more anger and podium of awesomeness screaming from you. How do you know i do not compete? How do you know i do not compete on the national level ?

            Could it be because you think you are so awesome, and i am shooting your argument to ribbons, you think we cannot be peers?

            I notice even the way to pose your aggressive challenge is a burden on me to come see you, not you come see me. Not for you to come to my club and be laughed at, and ushered out, and be told, “you know what man, your 60 years old, you refuse to have a safe? Ok well shut it then, we do not want to hear your mad ranting, and ravings. ”

            I am starting to think you have no idea what your saying and how crazy it sounds.

            I notice how you think challenging you on a foolish stance means i am angry. Why wouldn’t i say the same thing to your face? Please answer that.

            Answer this: “The last person who did that at our range was kicked out from the range for two years.”

            The last person to get angry with you? The last person to get angry period, even if at themselves was thrown out for two years.

            I realize i am typing fast, and not even putting this through spell check/grammar check, but the way you write is very confusing. I think on purpose.

            It sounds like you are trying to shame me, that if i dared chirp up, and call you out on cheap, lazy, dangerous, BAD PARENTING stance of yours. You want others to believe i would be thrown out. Therefore i am wrong, and you are right? Is that what you want other readers to believe.

            Could i not have you thrown out for running around telling everyone with a safe they do not need one, and they are not as good a parent as you are (despite you going out of your way to put your kids at risk)? That’s not in peoples face and offensive ?

            I think you really need to be humbled, as you have a far far to high opinion of yourself if you think no one would challenge you in person. You are old, you are not intimidating, i would have a gun, i am probably close to 6-7 inches taller than you, i am 30 years younger than you. Why on earth would i be afraid to call you out in person.

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 28, 2013 at 15:14

            I can’t know if you compete because…. I don’t know who you are….

            You are just a handle that gets mad at everything I say…

          • jamieb
            February 28, 2013 at 15:20

            yeah i am just a handle. You only share your name because you are in the industry, sort of. I am not. Half the country is anti gun. I do not want my full name on the net with everything i have to say about guns. See more podium stuff. Your so awesome yamin.

            Also just a handle? I asked how you know i do not compete, not if you know me.

            Go read what you wrote the first time. The goal was to try to intimidate me, with a national event, and being thrown out of some event, that may or may not be the nationals. Doesnt matter really, i am sure a local even with you there is actually better then the nationals. Anything you do is awesome. Its the best just by virtue of your presence. If they are so lucky as to here you speak while there, the people there should feel blessed. They should probably make a plaque and put your words on the wall.

            *rolls eyes*

          • Yamil R. Sued
            February 28, 2013 at 15:37

            How am I intimidating you by saying that I have worked hard at teaching my children well??

            Matt in FL is right, you have taken this to a personal basis

            I apologize to the board and to Caleb..

            I shouldn’t have been hooked into this post, I fell for it

          • jamieb
            February 28, 2013 at 15:49

            that is not what i said, and that is not what you said earlier. Nice try though.

    • lloyd
      February 28, 2013 at 13:59

      if a parent these day,s can get his kids growed up these days he ought to be proud i dont have any of my own kids but i drove school bus for years and parents has told me it was like haveing 3 parents and they were glad that i was involved ididnt have to i wanted to i guess it was because i had good parents but those kids will say they are glad im not bragging im not saying anything about anybody else just saying i am proud of all my kids i hauled 70 to 80 kids ata time

  18. Yamil R. Sued
    February 27, 2013 at 17:48

    Oh, and having a safe or NOT having a safe, that is YOUR choice, I don’t have a choice, BATFE made that choice for me!! I HAVE TO HAVE A SAFE!! PERIOD!!! Well, that is if I want to keep my FFL. But I didn’t get it because my children might touch my guns!!

  19. jamieb
    February 28, 2013 at 14:58

    moderator please post a link to the terms of use that were violated.

    Thank you.

    Also who do i email, and what is their address, if something i said is a violation i think there might be 2-3 violations by others in this very thread that seem to have flown under your radar.

    • Matt in FL
      February 28, 2013 at 15:23

      I’m not a moderator, but if someone flagged you for a posting violation, it’s probably because you and Yamil have monopolized this post with your bickering, and probably something about personal attacks being against the rules. I’m not passing judgement on either one of you specifically; I’m just making an educated guess, since there are currently 57 comments (this one makes 58), and you two account for >30 of them.

      I tried to find a link to the terms of use, because I know it used to be around, but I’ll be damned if I can find it now. It may have disappeared due to the recent hacking/outage.

      • jamieb
        February 28, 2013 at 15:35

        based on the fact my post was deleted moments after i posted it, and i have yet to hear back from a mod, that means yamin did not like the post, he has the email to the mods, he emailed them, and got it removed.

        By the way, he is saying anyone with a safe is not as good a parent as he is. I would say almost anything can be said if he sets the tone of the page with you are all crap parents, i am the best.

        By the way i did not say anything controversial to him. Certainly nothing more than the stuff he has said thus far, up to and including thinly veiled personal threats, possibly of violence.

    • February 28, 2013 at 15:33
      • Matt in FL
        February 28, 2013 at 15:40

        How in the hell did I not find that? I am laughing out loud right now. Thanks Caleb.

      • jamieb
        February 28, 2013 at 15:57

        that is rather simple. I think to others possibly one word i said may have been slightly dickish, but not with in the context of what yamin has said thus far.

        You could delete the one word, or sentence even if you, and not the whole paragraph.

  20. Yamil R. Sued
    February 28, 2013 at 15:38

    Caleb, please feel free to delete all my posts on this thread!! I would do it myself if I could

  21. jamieb
    February 28, 2013 at 15:54

    That might look nice for you to have caleb delete, it. It will not make caleb look nice running around like a servant cleaning up your mess for you.

    Its his web site, you didn’t disgrace him, or make him look bad. Well unless he deletes it, then there is some journalistic issues.

    • February 28, 2013 at 16:10

      I have just about had it with this nonsense.

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